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#81 rudy the red-beaked reindeer

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Posted 24 August 2021 - 01:31 AM

all read up, too much to say. first of all: hell yea hobo2

I don't wan't to get to into bernie and yang but I agree with a lot of what has been said. bernie's campaign fucked up this time around, prolly overestimating how many middle class career ppl know what the executive branch is or does

mope I can definitely see what you're saying regarding sustainability and I have no rational response. in moments of optimism I'm all with you. like in a big way I'm sure the only reason that park project with the grandma even happened is because of a renewed focus on the value of nature, the environment, recreation, and public spaces which is certainly in part due to the buzz of sustainability. like try as capitalism fucking might, certain biological truths are tenacious af and still shine through


https://the-toast.ne...ly-a-text-game/


whew at least I'm not all of them


also tho mainstream discussions about sustainability never lead to the obvious conclusion of there's no ethical consumption under capitalism and it's not because it's taken for granted

agree completely but it makes a lot of those convos kind of fundamentally unsatisfying for me in the same way discussions about diversity and inclusion in consumer products and media does. near-sightedness/analytic myopia/inability to extricate oneself from lines of thought that have already been absorbed into a capitalist ideological structure blah blah blah

this btw is where I think one might begin to find value in the concept of the supernatural

also, never thought about the packaging thing. that fits into how I think about things so thanks for adding another brick to the wall!

what do you mean with the supernatural? because I completely agree if the "natural" refers to the natural world as science understands it. no intellectual concept exists in a vacuum, everything's infected by language viruses and distorted by perception

#82 hobo2

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Posted 25 August 2021 - 05:22 AM

The world is paying more lip service, but I really don't see climate change being taken more seriously in any significant way. Entrepreneurs are doing what they've always done: inflated their own egos while hoping to make a lot of money. It doesn't matter to them if their carbon capture machines only take back 1% of yearly carbon emissions as long as they can lobby the government to force everyone to buy their machines, make bank, and tell everyone how they're making the world a better place. When the goal is extracting as much money as possible, the system will be driven over a cliff as long as it can squeeze out a few more bucks. If anything, the carbon capture machines will give an excuse to pollute further because "the machines have it covered" even when the machines don't really have it covered. It's like recycling. Most plastics aren't even recyclable and of the ones that are, it's a highly polluting process. However, it's marketed as if a difference is being made and that plastics could be green, it's just that *you* need to recycle (again, placing the blame squarely on individuals instead of the corporations that generate the vast majority of pollution). The three Rs are reduce, reuse, and recycle. Really, that's the order in which we should be doing it. We should be reducing usage first and foremost, reusing what we can, and finally recycling the rest. The "problem" under our economic system is that reducing and reusing have very limited or no profit-making potential. Often times I'll see articles like "we need to eat bugs to be sustainable" (I'd rather go vegetarian/vegan btw) or "we need to use paper straws" and it's usually because some guy invested in a bug farm or paper straw factory. Even supposed sustainability becomes an avenue to sell more shit.

 

The new space race is an extension of that ego-boosting, self-serving behavior. We're supposed to cheer on these billionaires because they're "making progress" but to what end? The cynic in me thinks of it as the rich's ultimate backup plan after they've trashed the Earth so much as to be inhabitable. Hell, even the old space race was just a show of military might. Speaking of which, it's funny to me that the US considers itself the winner of that space race when Russia did everything first, particularly everything important for military usage (spy satellites and ICBMs), but the US just moved the goalposts to the moon. Then we're told of all the great advances discovered while engaging in that space race. Yes, large well-funded collaborative efforts tend to produce great results. Take war, for example, many advancements are made there too, but does that make war worth it? Space races are much more benign, but we have to look at priorities. Should we really let a few individuals have billions of dollars to play around with while so many others live in misery? The technological advancements made are nice, but there are other -- arguably far more effective -- ways of improving people's livelihoods. 

 

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the idea of the massive lawsuit of the American people vs the state. The supreme court will side with the system like they always do. Like it's the same issue that you point out that Bernie runs into. The system does not take kindly to change and stubbornly refuses it. We could have single payer healthcare and most of the country is even on board with the idea, but big media present the idea as absolutely impossible and the many politicians in the pockets of the industry reinforce that idea. Would the lawsuit force a conversation? Perhaps, but so has Bernie's campaigns. The problem is that the conversation is dominated by money whether it's money in media giving a bigger platform for certain ideas or money in politics getting politicians elected to act a certain way. 

 

Lower taxes aren't what bring companies to the US, it's the potential to make huge profits. The US for the longest time was the largest customer base with the most amount of money to spend. What the US should've done was take a hard stance against corporations exploiting labor (domestically or abroad) but that was never going to happen because corporations and the government are in bed with each other. Really, that was our reason for opening relations with China, just a large pool of labor to exploit. China, however, has developed into a massive customer base of its own and so we're seeing big media ringing the alarms of China being dangerous because [insert human rights violations that they don't actually care about] but in reality it's because they have the potential to compete with the US economically. What you also see are corporations catering to China to get to that huge customer base. You'll see companies give up IP rights and ownership to China just for this customer base. Taxes really mean little in the grand scheme of things, it's just a thing they complain about because they want an ever-expanding profit margin. Taxes, however, would go a long way to funding important programs that we need here (though there are claims that we could just print our way into buying everything we want like in modern monetary theory, but I say there are practical limits to that).

 

I really don't see significant change being made even by firebrand politicians. If you want to make change, you have to be a credible threat, otherwise they just mock and ignore you. However, if you're a credible threat then they will ultimately suppress you with violence, which is why you'd need to be able to back it up with force of your own. There is a theory that things were mostly as good as they were in the 50s and later because the USSR was a credible threat to US dominance and offered a comparison with which people could use as a reference to their own standing in life. The US had to sweeten the deal to keep people loyal. Similarly, I can see China rising as a viable competitor and perhaps us getting a sweeter deal out of it.



#83 Mope

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Posted 25 August 2021 - 03:24 PM

I’m not saying that all the points you’re making aren’t distinctly true. Of course they are; we’ve been overly dependent on China as a cheap manufacturer of goods for waaay too long and were shown the very extent of how damaging that can actually be. How interwoven and thoroughly dysfunctional the global economy actually is.

For me it was like watching some lil’ DDR wizard breakdance in the middle of an arcade sending that top score through the fucking roof.

YES YES YES

And yes; like everyone else has stated as well. In MANY, MANY ways conservation is just another means of consumerism; as a matter of fact basically every aspect of our lives is in some way or another.

These are all very, very valid points we took as givens even way back when. Even now in many ways they’ve only increased exponentially.

BUT

I feel like there is an air of change blowing; really in order to see this you’ve really got to disregard all of the inherent defeatism and pessimism as static, conditional restraints.

Yes; we want the world to change. Or at least us. No, in the ways we would like to see change and so feel it should. It does not come so easily. And of course this leads to a very very disillusioned worldview. Maybe these subtle differences are so much harder to perceive and appreciate for what they are.

I see all these points as grounded principle; like a building block, an alphabet, the basics in mathematics

And although I do not like, or more accurately hate the system for what it is there are certain things I can appreciate for what they are.

For instance besides social media becoming a titan of marketing, manipulation, and ignorance it has proven time and time again to be an effective means for education and grass roots organization.

Despite our system of governance being a motherfuckin colossal form of entrapment and basically an evolved form of Middle Ages serfdom there are certain events that have happened or are that I personally cannot deny the value of.

And I will not deny that as is or what we have or have had will never effectively work. Even at best it will still be a comparative failure. I am not looking at these things within the constraints of the system. I am saying that inevitably, potentially rather comparatively soon that system itself is due to a reckoning. Even if in the most very VERY subtle of ways. It will have to adapt and evolve like everything else. I just think that things are already happening that are going to bring it to a head. A VIOLENT revolution!? Probably not. A renaissance or changing of the guard or kind of mixed upheaval MAYBE. But it is going to happen, maybe not in the ways we’d like or would want to foresee. But it will because it will have to or we will go the way of so many fallen empires before us, just more modern; lil different.

Gonna use one example:

The riots in the aftermath of the George Floyd killing

Alright…for a LONG, LONG time the American public has been disillusioned with the US justice system. And I’m several instances there was activism, there was protest, there was rage.

But in the midst of the COVID epidemic and all it’s bullshit. All the right conditions were met to initiate a catalyst.

People fucking LOST their shit and took to the streets in cities all across the United States and even other parts of the world in solidarity

Now, I’m not saying that this action in itself wasn’t ridden with contrived misguided bullshit or an effort to just lash out and wreak havoc.

Hell no

I’m saying ALL OF THIS was symptomatic

And the best fucking part about it was WHAT DID THOSE IN POWER DO!?

For nearly weeks at first, very very little. Because they were stuck in a kind of predicament they were not used to dealing with.

Assurances were not enough, brute force was not enough, contrived concessions were not enough.

Even the militant asinine president was shitting himself

And when our leadership FINALLY decided to act it was first a libertarian rep who concocted a plan to repeal an act that made it nigh impossible to sue police officers for abuse of authority


There was a cohesive effort to reflect on these policies and even racism itself within the system itself

We’re these comparatively LITTLE BULLSHIT concessions that amounted to measurably nothing? Yes, yes they were.

BUT

It made an imprint upon people AND history. It reminded those very same people of their power, which despite it all we do have.

It is the baby stirring in its sleep. A thing I say we have not seen to this degree in a VERY, VERY long time.

I don’t really think that I idolize or try to excuse the dysfunction for what it is. I just try to look a little closer at it and notice little changes or differences that kind of give me a bit of backhanded optimism.

Because in all honesty that’s not really a bad thing to have. It’s a tool for cultivating such a mindset. Like encouraging a small child to keep walking even though they fail time and time again.

I’ll talk about the commercialization of space in a little bit because it is also a very interesting topic.

And again; I 100% do not disagree with absolutely anything you’ve been saying about it.

It is fucking bullshit.

We should not feel dependent or codependent or interwoven to the whims of those with wealth to seek progress or technological innovation.

I’m many, many, many ways I hate and am fearful of it

BUT at the same time there are and will be undeniable benefits to it.

And I’m not talking about one day scoring a lower budget ticket in Jeff Bezos dickshaped rocket

It’s like….the shit is ugly. It is atrocious and it is the bane of humanity

BUT AT THE SAME TIME

A denial of these things stunts our own growth and morale in a way. In comparison, it is akin to the conservative redneck who wants to go back to the 1950s where colored people weren’t allowed to have opinions and feminism was just a passing phase.

It IS NOT the same

It is highly evolved and a more conscious perception of how things do work and the ways in which they should.

But at the same time

Perceiving your reality through the lens of “it is all ineffectual bullshit” EVEN IF I’m many, many ways IT ACTUALLY IS

Can be deafening and blinding

#84 Mope

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Posted 25 August 2021 - 04:38 PM

Ok, in order to talk about the “SECOND GREAT AMERICAN SPACE RACE!”

(And you are absolutely right about Russia one of the first people into space during that era was a female cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova that everyone seems to conveniently forget about and yes it was all essentially an effort of two imperialists dick measuring through post WW2 era military might and Cold War era geopolitical bullshit)

I’m going to talk about modern DEMAGOGUERY for a minute, which still is not a new thing whatsoever.

We have this REALLY REALLY bad habit of idolatry with those of wealth, fame, and power. We always have, always. But through the whims of modern capitalism, anti-intellectualism, marketing and advertising and a mix; a nice blend of A BUNCH OF FANTASTICAL BULLSHIT

This telling trait within the American consciousness has progressed into a gigantic motherfuckin tumor that gets into virtually everything. Damn if it ain’t even an attribute to how we make certain decisions concerning our individual life decisions and personal ideologies.

It is the NEW RELIGION and most don’t even fully realize to what extent they’re actually doing it.

In a sense we have not even progressed past the point of civil war era ideology and struggles.

For instance the POOREST most DESPONDENT motherfuckers in the country will still to this day vehemently fight for the wealth of another because they are sold the facade of entrepreneurship of the great American dream and it is a fantasy they cannot let go of out of their own will and desperation.

Motherfucker will buy and scrape through a million scratch off tickets rather than circumvent that money into personal investments because on one hand even that effort is relatively futile but on the other THERES A CHANCE….even if in reality there really isn’t.


THIS BEING SAID

This same demagoguery has snowballed among other things as a state of unprecedented wealth for those that do work the system to their benefit or achieve wealth through consumer advancements or market manipulation…all that shit.

Right now; three of the biggest titans in industry have their eyes set on a grand new frontier….space!

For various reasons; the more immediately gratifying like government grants or funding. And the more long term such as resource mining, establishing inter solar colonies, patenting advancements in technology.

It is a potentially limitless means of influence and wealth.

Mining asteroids for rare minerals, harvesting water on the moon to filter or produce as a component for jet fuel.

They are already right now as we speak finishing or have finished a multi billion dollar agreement on harvesting rights for ice on earths moon.

Like surveyors leasing out quadrants off or near the continental shelf for potential deep water drilling.

In MANY MANY ways this is an absolutely terrifying thing.

See; everyone laughs but the US Space force was not established merely because we have an irrational fear of an imminent alien invasion. But to enforce US law or international law within the boundaries of space.

You are talking about corporate subsidiaries in control of a near limitless amount of wealth, of potentially establishing their own colonies; their own nations, their own rule of law in a currently lawless environment.

Right now; IT IS A GOOD thing NASA is an aspect of this. But it is only a matter of time before they are no longer needed.

So, back to these demagogues

Speaking loosely

They are all pieces of shit, they just are. They are THE problem if not a very profound aspect of it. Really, fuck them.

BUT

AT THE SAME TIME

It is kind of like a gross overestimation of people to expect the masses to just merely reclaim this power for themselves. It’s just not really a reality. Even by the most optimistic of sociological projections you are expecting a shitload of stupid, ignorant, selfish sons of bitches to understand concepts and cohesion that are WAY WAY WAY above their means.

When we are talking about the MASSIVE even simply speaking AMERICAN population. They’re generally functionally retarded.

It’s not WHOLLY their fault, it’s not that they are incapable of doing better. It’s just going to take more personal and collective growth than we are currently capable of achieving.

I hate it

I hate the ever living fuck out of it

I REALLY REALLY do

It is the epitome of EVERYTHING I hate

But honestly speaking, honestly. You could expect one person to accumulate an immeasurable amount of wealth then build and establish a more utopian society before you could ever expect the general public to come on a consensus to what that bullshit even means.

And with that being said, I am not saying that’s what these people are doing, what they plan to do, or even have within the depths of their own minds. I’m saying THATS THE REALITY of it.

So now we’re gonna talk about plutocracy

The gist of it; the stripped down simplistic manner of speaking was that.

Plato never believed in true democracy or equality just like our founding fathers didn’t.

For various, obvious reasons.

He believed there were those with the inherent responsibility of leadership and those without

And it was the duty of those with to look after the ones without

And that whole kind of underlying bedrock is where we come back to the subject of the American idolatry.


It is an UGLY, UGLY, FUCKIN TERRIBLE THING!

It is, it fucking is!

But

You’ve gotta really reflect upon the scope of which we’re working here.

Which is an innumerable amount of self defeating, self destructive fucking idiots akin to a turkey standing out in the rain with its mouth open and fucking drowning.

We just aren’t there yet

And in spite of ALL MY OPTIMISM this is a truth I cannot and will not deny.

The real point I’m making is that even amongst all these things; we DO have a power. We just do. And if anything it is our responsibility at the very least to hold these very same people accountable. Whether it is through guilt, or shame, or buying power, or refusal to cooperate, or insults. Fucking force feed it to them.

We CAN and in the most subtle of ways ARE doing that at least.

#85 Mope

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Posted 25 August 2021 - 11:49 PM

Like….me. I see a world that is in some ways ever growing and ever evolving yet in others it is not.

In a lot of ways human beings are just fucking cattle; cattle definitely capable of MORE yet that is not a thing everyone wants or is even capable of. Rightfully so of course.

The only real problem concerning that is the prevalence and the vacuum of protections against opportunistic motherfuckers that use and abuse these people for their own means.

And when we talk about space; it is the new frontier. It is coming, it just is. That’s where those eyes are set and that’s where we are going. Not that the Earth willl be forgotten or left behind. There is no laser focus. I really think the progress in one will beget another because in many ways we will still have to.

And back to society; I do see these things changing in more subtle ways. Like; with people being like cattle they are going to inherently respond to harmful stimuli LIKE CATTLE

And I do see that a lot in various ways; if things do not change. Which as discussed, they will not. I see this happening a lot more frequently and cohesively.

Like; very recent events

They are symptomatic, they are a people’s responding to harmful stimuli. Who might not fully understand the contexts or repercussions of WHY but they do know it fucking hurts and act accordingly.

Like, it does sound pretty misanthropic and fucked up but I learned a long long time ago that time moves with a consensus.

And I really don’t think it’s PURELY a matter of lifestyle or adverse impacts or brainwashing that has made people as indifferent and unmotivated as they are.

I think it is all of those things mixed in with a lot of bullshit concessions and relative comfort.

Especially post 80s era

BUT

The world is changing; it just fucking is. With or without us. And THAT is going to be the great catalyst; THAT is going to stir shit on the farm.

Because it is a distinct reality; it is inescapable, it will be an objective truth. And it and all it’s collective circumstance are, have, and will for the foreseeable future. Scare the living fuck out of people who so, so, so, so desperately need it.

#86 hobo2

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 03:58 AM

There is an air of change blowing, but it is always blowing. History gets simplified into what are considered major events, but it's all an accumulation of change. I've been awaiting this fabled reckoning of the system since 2008 when the economy was on the verge of complete and utter collapse, the first black US president was elected, and hope and change were the slogan. Occupy Wall Street seemed like a "this is it" moment and it... just sorta withered away. In fact, it's somewhat similar to the protests happening last year. The pattern went: big media gave it attention, then criticized it, then ignored it. Occupy Wall Street seemed to get serious coverage, then mockery of "the stinky moochers" or whatever, and then they ignored it. Similarly, the protests last year were given serious coverage, then too much focus was put on property damage and the narrative that "they're destroying their own communities", and then it just went away. Like OWS, the protests didn't just stop, they were just ignored because big media know that attention brings power. They do not platform ideas of change beyond milking for views. It also fed the narrative that everything was bad during Trump's presidency but Biden brought us all back to normalcy so we have nothing to complain about.

 

A similar narrative seemed to be developing around covid. The Biden administration put together a solid rollout plan, vaccinations were ahead of schedule, and the CDC was removing mask mandates. The problem is that the virus doesn't thrive based on media attention and cannot be so easily dismissed. Many were skeptical of vaccination due to the proliferation of misinformation taking advantage of so many years of people being let down and lied to by their government. On top of that, worldwide vaccination rates aren't so hot (which is a huge problem for a virus that spreads so easily and can mutate to something worse and come back) and children under 12 can't even get vaccinated (yet there's a huge push to reopen schools so that their parents can go back to the office and feed the economic machine).

 

There is an emphasis on simplified history where cause and effect are clearly defined and people and events fit into neat little packages. Real history is not so neat and clean. Perhaps this simplified representation is needed for people to make sense of things, but it's also a useful tool for propaganda, to create a narrative of what "works" and what "doesn't work". For example, non-violent resistance is highlighted in the history books because that happens to be the most convenient for the elites. They can respond with violence or just ignore you. However, the messy reality is that resistance takes many forms and then after compromise, the elites pretend that they were fine with change as long as it was asked for nicely. 

 

My fear is that we are in a very slow unwinding phase of empire collapse. The situation will keep getting worse as the parasitic rich continue to loot the country while funding media campaigns to keep the peasants fighting with one another. We won't even get the benefit of some fruit falling our way because the tree is getting barren as the empire collapses. The space race is but a distraction. While, yes, technological advances that come from that would be nice, I won't be on my deathbed thinking "ugh, I wish I was there to troubleshoot printers on Mars..." Cool gadgets and travel destinations do not necessarily lead to a higher quality of life. What most people are looking for is to just live a decent life. While this may be seen as people acting like sheep, it's a manifestation of the overwhelming force of large-scale civilization where the rules are set by people given positions of too much power. 



#87 Frisky SKeleton

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 01:31 PM

A lot of stuff here but check out "The Limits to Growth" and the related follow ups from The Club of Rome. A warning that it absolutely ruined me for a while.


I USE Q'S INSTEQD OF Q'S


#88 Mope

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 04:35 PM

I get what you’re saying hobo

Definitely and I don’t really disagree with that either. I actually think we’re already going that route and have been for a long time. I just think it’ll be more akin to the British Empire over the Romans.

I think I just try to see optimism in it if I can or I feel it is potentially there. Of course nobody can really tell the future or how things will pan out.

I think we saw a lot of that parasitic (me till the last fuckin breath) behavior with the fall of the Soviet Union.

And for me; I don’t even see “elites” as some enigmatic, cabal of THEM anymore

They are ignorant, dumbass people just like everyone else. There is no grand scheme or machinations of premeditated oppression. It’s just the way things in our society were crafted and fell into place at a time when people felt these things were progressive or necessary.

If anything it’s clinging to old methods of thought and archaic systems of government and commerce. It’s people constantly deluding themselves because they are fucking lazy, apathetic, and easily led.

I mean yes; there is a lot of misinformation, misleading, brainwashing, cultivating, etc.

But even amongst all of it at some point you’ve got to kind of hold yourself accountable for feeding into the bullshit. It’s a different time. Information is out there, there are easily acquired means of educating and informing oneself, fucking going out; getting out of oneself and just asking questions in itself does wonders.

I do it all the time. I can’t really help it. Sure in some ways I am different but by all means if we’re talking environment and conditioning if that were an ultimatum I’d be a really, REALLY ignorant son of a bitch

Like; waaaaay waaaay worse

#89 Mope

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 04:48 PM

I’ll check em out when I get the hair to do so Frisky.

I really liked “The 4 Horseman”

It’s a documentary with Noam Chomsky and a few other intellectuals that draw a lot of contrasts and comparisons with the fall of Roman civilization

It’s really really interesting

In one part; which they talk about a lot of things. Colonial overextension, economic downfall, anti intellectualism

But one of them was what Noam called, “The Age of Decadence”

Which is when they basically fell into a state of lethargy and I guess you’d call it societal vice.

The poor stayed stupid and the wealthy squandered coffers on extravagant bullshit while everything collapsed all around them. Then when they started to realize what was going on the wealthy ran diversionary tactics with constant gladiatorial matches and blood sports.


If I remember correctly there was a distinct atmosphere of: “Fuck it, let it die” because people were so jaded and bitter among other things.

But to me; like, even IF that shit happens.

Even if it’s something like the US falling so far into massive dept, dysfunction, and rampant chaos China just Invests money then essentially takes over.

I really don’t think I’d be so upset over it. I think I’d find it hilarious

Like I read an article recently about how China had developed this contingency plan to set off a massive EMP above North America essentially sending us back into the Stone Age and I was laughing

I was like: “Fuckin’ go for it, we deserve that shit. Do or die moment. That’ll force Americans to get their heads out of their asses.”

Almost like a malevolent, benign action

Like poisoning the fresh water supply in capitol hill with copious amounts of LSD

I always thought about doing that…

#90 hobo2

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Posted 28 August 2021 - 05:03 AM

I don't think of the elites as a cabal either, but they have common goals due to their position in society and it's a lot easier to get your way when you can just pay people to spread your message and/or do your bidding. They may pay different people, but the ideas are the same (more wealth in the hands of the wealthy because I'm wealthy). I completely agree with you that they're just as ignorant and stupid. Their actions are motivated by selfishness and greed, after all. However, they can dictate the direction that society takes. Yes, there is the matter of the individual staying informed to fight back, but this is easier said than done. The average individual has bills to pay, families to raise, jobs to work that take 40+ hours a week, and they're being assaulted with an overload of information from various multimedia outlets employing armies of propagandists. It's hard to fight against narratives that are repeated everywhere around you and that have a prepared list of points and counterpoints while at the same time you're just trying to live your life. These people are paid to feed you this narrative full-time, yet you're supposed to figure out the truth while working a completely different full-time job and handling the rest of your life's responsibilities. I think part of the reason for the persistence of the 40+ hour workweek is to keep people busy so that they can't do this. It's either intentional or a shitty coincidence.

 

A collapse combined with current technologies could give us a real hell world. We've got surveillance tech that makes Nineteen Eighty-Four look like child's play. Requiring people who constantly have to watch video cameras instead of letting AI filter content of interest for people to review later? Needing to set up and maintain microphones everywhere instead of simply tapping into everyone's mobile devices? How quaint! Thinking of advanced tech, I wouldn't be surprised to see the return of gladiatorial matches and blood sports because your brain could be uploaded to computer storage for backup and then downloaded into a regrown clone of your body. We're making progress toward the regrowth of organs and interfacing with the brain through machines. Sure, we've still got a long way to go, but when that gets figured out, I could see the perceived ethics (or at least societal tolerability) of gladiatorial matches and blood sports being reclassified. Kind of an out-there side thought.

 

As for the competition with China, I could see it getting pretty nasty depending on how possible it'd be for China to knock us out of the top spot economically. Proxy wars are a given, but there is a possibility they grow into a more direct war. I remember reading somewhere that an EMP that massive wouldn't be practical. A direct war will likely mean nukes, though, and I don't know if the rulers will tolerate that even if they're safe in super bunkers. There's just a level of loss there that's too high to be worth it even for the victor that emerges (if there is one). China seems to be playing the game a hell of a lot better than the USSR. I could see the US trying economic means of destruction. Hell, they did it to Japan who is an ally. The measures would be more aggressive against China, but China is aware of them, so the US might not be able to pull them off. Either way, to reiterate on a previous post, I see competition with China giving some slack to commoners on either side for loyalty's sake, which would be welcome.



#91 Mope

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Posted 28 August 2021 - 05:30 AM

Modern gladiatorial matches are essentially exactly what MMA is

And about the US and China

I actually worked spying on Chinese submarines carrying missile and nuke tech to N Korea

Currently and throughout our history with them throughout the past few decades it’s been a lot of Cold War ops you don’t hear about

Essentially military dick measuring

But since then China has established its own fuel production fields, it’s own navy and it’s own air force that can now fairly competently compete with the US

It’s actually very very interesting this kind of relationship and how it’s handled, very telling.

Me personally, I feel like after being there and watching international diplomacy with them and global trade, minor conflicts etc.

That when it comes to major power players like China and Russia that all out warfare is a kind of farcry. They fight proxy wars through 3rd parties. Have for a long time. The way we actually combat each other is through global trade. Of course these things could change with time but I really don’t see it as being beneficial to them.

If anything of that kind of avenue happened it would be through expansion. Like Thailand or the Philippines and the US or NATO having enough vested interest to personally involve themselves and it sparking legitimate conflict.

I don’t really see the Cold War era nuclear Armageddon thing being that big an aspect either. Of course we’re all certainly capable but it would be inconceivably idiotic.

Then again you hear things like Nike armed Russian high altitude bombers passing through Californian skies to test the USAF so it’s still a distinct possibility.

But a lot of it is cyber warfare, it’s trade agreements and embargo’s, it’s proxy wars like with the Ukraine

We don’t even wage war like we used to it’s all under the table air strikes and spec ops guerrilla warfare and funding militants style bullshit to contravene popular opinion or national/international repercussions and reserve deniability.

Nah, I really think if and when we fall it’ll mostly be of our own recognizance and systemic failures.

#92 hobo2

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Posted 29 August 2021 - 03:15 AM

Sure, MMA has some similarities but it's a lot less lethal. 

 

I think direct war with China could be possible, but with boundaries set. For example, China could invade Taiwan and the US would get directly involved there, but would the war spill outside of Taiwan? I have no idea. Nukes seem unlikely, but it can be difficult to determine chain reactions. The parameters are different from the last cold war. If China and Russia were to join forces, could they out-nuke us? There will certainly be a lot of cyberwarfare, economic warfare, and proxy wars, but I assume all that spending on the military will be put to use in some capacity. Of course, it could just be good ol' wasteful spending put to little use since the military is mostly just a jobs programs anyway. Our fall will most likely be from within, as you say. 



#93 Frisky SKeleton

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Posted 30 August 2021 - 01:40 AM

I'm fairly confident we're capable of creating ultra-realistic graphic violence currently, I don't see a return to blood-sports - especially when they're consequence free.

Nukes and land-wars between superpowers is needlessly costly when you can hire a farm of twitter trolls to continually stir up civil unrest.

Important to note that any collapse or revolution isn't going to be fun, easy, or anything close to an immediate improvement.


I USE Q'S INSTEQD OF Q'S


#94 Mope

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Posted 30 August 2021 - 09:04 PM

Yes, as Climbtree said we’ve already pretty much patented a way to simulate those kinds of sporting events or commercialize that vicarious thirst for blood.

Like…mma is actually a REALLY good example of it. Fighting sports in general but MMA itself has kind of become it’s own thing in that way.

I really like martial arts, I like watching it and it’s kind of like anything else like football or golf where once you understand the principalities of it you kind of perceive it differently.

And this is where MMA gets really interesting

I’ll watch two fighters parrying, dodging, maneuvering around one another and effectively wearing each other down or getting in really good combinations and strikes then get really, really into it.

Because they’re both very skillful and very talented and it’s a “good fight”

I don’t even really watch combat sports very often because it’s really about taking the ever living fucking advantage out of these fighters.

Promoting them then paying them a relative pittance for essentially wearing their own bodies down over time. Essentially causing injury after injury until they are worthless then dumping them like used condoms.

It’s actually a really fucked up industry and the few that “make it” do so out of branding or investing.

BUT an inexperienced, untrained, or unknowledgeable die hard spectator will watch that same fight and get frustrated because one man isn’t locking down and submitting the other or knocking them unconscious or brutalizing them.

It’s that same spirit of Roman era gladiatorial games running through and in part why MMA has been wildly successful

As a matter of fact throughout the COVID epidemic Dana White was (and could still be) looking into investing in a private Island located in international territory to host his fights.

Like some legit mortal combat or blood sport shit and the public was wholly in support of it.

#95 Mope

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Posted 30 August 2021 - 09:22 PM

And yes; like I said earlier even how we wage wars has fundamentally changed

When people speak of the “New World Order”

In a way we are already kind of there in many ways. ESPECIALLY economically, to which if you really sit down and look at it essentially ties everything to everything.

US military serves as a deterrent and it has for years and years. Any legitimate conflicts are waged with poor, technologically and poorly funded militants with little to nothing to lose; directly manipulated or funded in many cases by other world powers.

It’s just economic and political suicide for these nations to wage open war; they are too intrinsically tied to one another.

I saw that EVERY DAY, EVERY FUCKING DAY when I was in the Yellow Sea.

Now it’s not an IMPOSSIBILITY that things could potentially escalate but if they ever really did I’d see it happen as a symptom of necessity. Resource management, overpopulation, or a society imploding upon itself.

Which when we go back to the current state of the US. I really don’t see us falling like that. First off once the relative comforts are gone and it’s just the heavy hand of fascist regime like control so many paranoid and discontent peoples especially fucking rednecks are going to lash out.

It’s that measure of “how much do you have to lose!?”

Once that point tapers out then people with a mindset to revolt or act out will and we have seen that rather consistently in the very recent past.

And yes; these changes will not whether a theoretical reality or a real one be comfortable whatsoever

It’ll be a lotta friction, a lot of unease, a lot of pain and suffering. And yes, I know that throughout the past we have had our emboldened moments and our forgotten ones.

I do feel like; this is a little different. I do. I feel like the others were generally a sum of human relationships and behavior. I feel like I’m the present and near future; these ones are an environmental response. A cause and effect, chain of events that one will not so easily escape from or ignore.

We are definitely TRYING to do that, it’s like we’re being yolked back, everytime and forced to confront the weight of our own actions and our own decisions.

Like, putting a fundamental problem on a shelf until it becomes so heavy, so all encompassing, and so terrible that you just can’t ignore it anymore. Whether directly or indirectly speaking a struggle will come. A change will come. These hidden Easter eggs will ripen into stinky fruition.

And it will be so in one way or another until we face them for what they are or fucking die, or suffer an extensive loss that will sociologically stunt us and deafeningly so.

#96 rudy the red-beaked reindeer

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Posted 31 August 2021 - 01:13 AM

need dietcoke in here to start solving some of this. he's a nuclear engineer or something now I think? during CHOP/CHAZ I thought of him bc I think he was in that general area, and I was really hoping CHOP/CHAZ would get their hands on some enriched uranium

I think if you zoom out enough it definitely seems like everything is irreversibly going to shit, but I think that this is, and I'm really sorry if I sound overly simplistic here and I don't mean to be dismissive, a metaphor for our own mortality. but the world's always been going to shit, rome fell and yet we have better pasta now than ever, didn't even have tomatoes back then let alone pomodoro. tomato was cultivated for millennia by the people who lived on the continents now called America, long before the culture of people who eventually made Italian food knew the others existed. the world is more than anyone can manage, so in order to not live an empty life in hopelessness you zoom in and focus on what you can change. but then we're constantly confronted with externalities that make us zoom out further and further and start the process over again. it's a mandlebrot set, just like everything.

ever notice thoughts form like fractals? have you had that kind of connection with someone where at times it's almost like the barrier that separates you from being two different people or beings dissolves and you'll have a conversation that rises and falls like a mandlebrot set, and a long time passes and you haven't even consciously been using words or inhabiting physical space? ever think, as you zoom back out and the room materializes around you and you realize your throat is dry, that if you focus the hardest you ever have in your life you can form concrete thoughts that represent the true, pure form of this other that you've just witnessed and communed with, but it speeds away as fast as the world returns? tell me you have please!

#97 Mope

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Posted 31 August 2021 - 01:49 AM

All of the time with specific kinds of people and only once with a special kind of person

That kind of singularity, where you don’t have to specifically hear someone articulate their thoughts to understand them or share a connection.

With others it comes and goes, I feel it’s more about fluid communication than something that runs deeper.

Lmfao

I’d thought I found my soulmate in all honesty in a realistic sense I probably did but that also scares the ever living shit out of people.

It’s like tripping hard, or being potentially insane, I liked it. I saw the beauty in it.

I’ll ride it to the end because it is a telling experience

Others it is a scary thing

ITS CONTROL! ITS VULNERABILITY! ITS EXPOSURE!

I just laugh at that. You are never in control, life is a joke and we’re the butt end sweetheart. Try to make the best of it and enjoy it for what it is.

#98 Mope

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Posted 31 August 2021 - 03:06 AM

And yes I get what you’re saying and maybe that’s in our nature to do that. I’m not saying that’s what I am doing.

And if you were to run comparisons to the projections of the Cold War era nuclear holocaust I would not deny them whatsoever.

I do think this point has merit and I kind of reflect upon it when I think about these things.

Also, despite as much as thinking people of logic and reason would like to rely upon it. Even science itself is an indeterminate thing. We constantly make new discoveries and projection which eclipse those that have come before. And the future is such a variable, intangible thing.

Same time though, there are so many massive changes happening. With the weather, with the atmosphere, with ecology far far more determined to begin happening very soon.

I personally see this as a constant, as something inescapable to the whims of human development or reform. It is beyond us, even through our highest expectations and ability.

At the same time though I see this as a very beautiful and necessary thing. In a fucked up kind of way. I mean, I could definitely be wrong. Wrong as shit and hopefully I am but I don’t feel that is so.

Like humanity itself is a little shitheaded child that has run amok for far too long and very foundation and walks around it are crumbling down.


I mean, I’m going to use the weather as an EXAMPLE

They’ve predicted an onslaught of potential, repetitive, cataclysmic storms for AWHILE now with an increase in climate heat index etc etc

And people basically just shrugged it off

I remember being young and living in Florida when these storms would come the kind of devastation they’d leave in their wake and how sometimes they wouldn’t

But recently, within the past five years or so they are so persistent. So frequent, so powerful.

It’s like: FWOOOM! FWOOOM! FWOOOM!

Over and over again in a kind of consistent repetition. Same goes for the wildfires, the behavior of the polar vortex in winter, sea water acidity, coastal erosion, not to mention the goddamned unbearable heat level, drought

And that all reflects on other things like the rising sea level, ancient viruses thawing out, mass extinctions.

Of course nature could ADAPT as could WE but at the rate these things are happening and the type of issues we’re dealing with now that we can’t even, or won’t overcome. I see it all coming to a head in certain ways.

Like, one begets another. That our global economy and society itself is going to suffer terribly as a culmination of all this and in order to effectively survive it, we are going to have to figure our shit out.

And to me, human behavior merits we will. Because we will be forced to. It’s just gonna be really, really painful.

I dunno. In a way I kind of personally have seen this coming and have prepared for it in my own way.

I’ve had to live hard, through dysfunction, without.

I learned the hard way that society is not something you can count on to protect you. That in a lot of ways it is counterproductive and deafening. That MOST people don’t really care or understand about the bigger, more indirect things that influence them in life. That everything gained can be lost so very easily. That connections and relationships only really last as long as they are conducive or beneficial.

I mean, generally speaking people are just fucking animals, even with the very best intent. And they’ll always react as such.

Family, friends, lovers, strangers, to a certain degree it’s all the same shit.

That a man’s future is about as concrete as his feet are firmly planted unto the earth, that we can all fall so very very easily.

If it isn’t repossession, or imprisonment, or injury, or dying and death.

Life and relative comfort are such easily lost and potentially unobtainable things.

So I kind of adapted my own lifestyle towards it. I don’t have kids because I couldn’t look them in the face and tell em the world they are living is is potentially dying and I’m leaving them that. I don’t buy a house so the fucking bank could reclaim it when I fall upon hard times. I never really pursued relationships because with what I do you are inherently hurting the person you are with.

I don’t even have a fuckin dog because I’d hurt them, I just would. You are Santa when you’re there and the fucking devil when you’re gone.

So sometimes I accrue a lot of money and others I don’t.

And this whole time I look around at the world I am living in like it’s a massive fucking dumpster fire which I wouldn’t wanna plant a flag atop of if I EVEN COULD and bare it on my own conscience.

So I just wander, like I’m already the last living man on a planet slowly falling to fucking pieces and laugh at it because that’s the best way I know how to deal with it.

Essentially speaking, to me. Even a merry family of five entrenched in a pristine house and a fuckin white picket fence are the same as a buncha desperate crackheads clinging on to their very last welfare check.

I don’t wanna feel responsible for that shit

#99 Mope

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Posted 31 August 2021 - 03:06 AM

And yes I get what you’re saying and maybe that’s in our nature to do that. I’m not saying that’s not what I am doing.

And if you were to run comparisons to the projections of the Cold War era nuclear holocaust I would not deny them whatsoever.

I do think this point has merit and I kind of reflect upon it when I think about these things.

Also, despite as much as thinking people of logic and reason would like to rely upon it. Even science itself is an indeterminate thing. We constantly make new discoveries and projection which eclipse those that have come before. And the future is such a variable, intangible thing.

Same time though, there are so many massive changes happening. With the weather, with the atmosphere, with ecology far far more determined to begin happening very soon.

I personally see this as a constant, as something inescapable to the whims of human development or reform. It is beyond us, even through our highest expectations and ability.

At the same time though I see this as a very beautiful and necessary thing. In a fucked up kind of way. I mean, I could definitely be wrong. Wrong as shit and hopefully I am but I don’t feel that is so.

Like humanity itself is a little shitheaded child that has run amok for far too long and very foundation and walks around it are crumbling down.


I mean, I’m going to use the weather as an EXAMPLE

They’ve predicted an onslaught of potential, repetitive, cataclysmic storms for AWHILE now with an increase in climate heat index etc etc

And people basically just shrugged it off

I remember being young and living in Florida when these storms would come the kind of devastation they’d leave in their wake and how sometimes they wouldn’t

But recently, within the past five years or so they are so persistent. So frequent, so powerful.

It’s like: FWOOOM! FWOOOM! FWOOOM!

Over and over again in a kind of consistent repetition. Same goes for the wildfires, the behavior of the polar vortex in winter, sea water acidity, coastal erosion, not to mention the goddamned unbearable heat level, drought

And that all reflects on other things like the rising sea level, ancient viruses thawing out, mass extinctions.

Of course nature could ADAPT as could WE but at the rate these things are happening and the type of issues we’re dealing with now that we can’t even, or won’t overcome. I see it all coming to a head in certain ways.

Like, one begets another. That our global economy and society itself is going to suffer terribly as a culmination of all this and in order to effectively survive it, we are going to have to figure our shit out.

And to me, human behavior merits we will. Because we will be forced to. It’s just gonna be really, really painful.

I dunno. In a way I kind of personally have seen this coming and have prepared for it in my own way.

I’ve had to live hard, through dysfunction, without.

I learned the hard way that society is not something you can count on to protect you. That in a lot of ways it is counterproductive and deafening. That MOST people don’t really care or understand about the bigger, more indirect things that influence them in life. That everything gained can be lost so very easily. That connections and relationships only really last as long as they are conducive or beneficial.

I mean, generally speaking people are just fucking animals, even with the very best intent. And they’ll always react as such.

Family, friends, lovers, strangers, to a certain degree it’s all the same shit.

That a man’s future is about as concrete as his feet are firmly planted unto the earth, that we can all fall so very very easily.

If it isn’t repossession, or imprisonment, or injury, or dying and death.

Life and relative comfort are such easily lost and potentially unobtainable things.

So I kind of adapted my own lifestyle towards it. I don’t have kids because I couldn’t look them in the face and tell em the world they are living is is potentially dying and I’m leaving them that. I don’t buy a house so the fucking bank could reclaim it when I fall upon hard times. I never really pursued relationships because with what I do you are inherently hurting the person you are with.

I don’t even have a fuckin dog because I’d hurt them, I just would. You are Santa when you’re there and the fucking devil when you’re gone.

So sometimes I accrue a lot of money and others I don’t.

And this whole time I look around at the world I am living in like it’s a massive fucking dumpster fire which I wouldn’t wanna plant a flag atop of if I EVEN COULD and bare it on my own conscience.

So I just wander, like I’m already the last living man on a planet slowly falling to fucking pieces and laugh at it because that’s the best way I know how to deal with it.

Essentially speaking, to me. Even a merry family of five entrenched in a pristine house and a fuckin white picket fence are the same as a buncha desperate crackheads clinging on to their very last welfare check.

I don’t wanna feel responsible for that shit

#100 Mope

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Posted 31 August 2021 - 03:31 AM

And what’s REALLY REALLY FUNNY

Is that I cannot, for the life of me reconcile these as untruths or falsities.

And when I am put into being hypomanic I cannot simply “not give a shit” like most people can.

It’s a kind of very heavy and relentless thing. It’s like having a little symbiote in your head that feeds off of information, reflects upon it, then tosses it back into your head in a very creative manner.

It’s kind of like watching a constant stream of mtv infused cspan but the bullshit is intentionally humorous and way less opinionated politics.

Part of me is like a donkey being dragged along a highway, the other is a malevolent little jackassed demon that’s like: GET IT GET IT GO! GO! GO!

I turn into one of those star wars robots that’s gone too long without a memory wipe

It’s a kind of grey area

Because I do not get the benefits of being completely insane and yet others I am distinctly not.

And I’ve talked to therapists, Drs, psychologists, psychiatrists

Been like: IM FUCKING CRAZY

Them: Nothing you have said sounds crazy

Me: I AM FUCKING CRAZY, OR THE WORLD IS DRIVING ME CRAZY, OR BOTH!

And then they give me mood stabilizers which do not phase me whatsoever

I don’t think I’m legitimately crazy, I think I see things that other people conventionally do not. I think I’m very perceptive and creative. I think in many ways it has been very enlightening and beneficial to me. Yet in many others very stressful and motherfuckin annoying.

I think if I were other things it’d work out, it’d be beneficial.

But I am not and I really do not care and I don’t really want to. There is such a thing as knowing or feeling or perceiving too much.

I turn into a fucking supervillain

I just plot shit

I watch things going on and laugh maniacally because I want the same people hobo talks about to eat their own shit and I am wholly content with watching society collapse into a mad max hell’s cape in order for that to happen.

It’s not EVIL it’s not like I’m a HORRIBLE PERSON I just get in my feels for the long game.

Like, the worst thing that could possibly happen would be me falling into a shitload of money because I’d have the capital to fund all my plots and would make it my life’s mission to just fuck with pieces of shit.

I wouldn’t even care about the money itself it’d just be a really big gun for me to play with.

Then I’d just cold turkey quit medicating myself to stay relatively normal and be like: I HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY

Then I dunno what would happen, I honestly don’t. I can’t control the shit it just goes.




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