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#1 The Mike

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 04:09 AM

So recently I published a couple of blogs that brought a bit of attention to my myspace.  As a result I received a lot of hilarious hate mail and an invitation from a 61-year-old lady to participate in a series of debates concerning the Bible and Christianity.

The Cruelty and Violence series is obviously biased, and I never really had any intent for it not to be.  It's just a funny interpretation of certain selections of scripture.  Some of it is serious, and it has caught the attention of some pretty crazy religious people and a few more atheists.  One lady says she's gonna fast for seven days and spend the rest of her time this week in a prayer closet in the hopes of interceding and ultimately saving my soul so that I get to go to Heaven when the world ends next week.

Either way, the debate that this lady has invited me to is going to be a departure from Cruelty and Violence.  I'd like to have a serious, objective analysis of Christianity and the Bible.  I don't want it to turn into a huge flame war.  I'm willing to make valid arguments and not write every reply with the intent of offending people.  The only problem is, well, which aspects of the Bible and/or Christianity are good for debate?

At times GW seems to be a hotbed for religious/political debate.  For those of you who participate in those, which topics did you enjoy discussing the most?  The Bible is a very broad topic, and I'd like some specific examples of sections that make for a good debate and analysis. 

(keep in mind i'm not asking you guys to turn this topic into a debate/flame war...i'm asking for TOPICS, not ARGUMENTS)

Discuss.

#2 Doktormartini

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 04:15 AM

Bring up a shit load of the contradictions (no doubt she, as most Christians do, try to make up excuses as to why they are there).  Bring up the Documentary Hypothesis theory.  Bring up facts like how Paul never met/doesn't know anything about Jesus except for the death and ressurection so you can't trust him.
Also, ask her why the Myspace Daily Bible verse never shows any of the versus containing bad things like killing, incest...stuff like that.

I could go on...

On a somewhat related note, I messaged this random chick cause she was vegetarian and her profile said she loved animals I'm like, "Hey that's cool I do also!"  Then she messaged me back basically saying Christ is the truth and tried to convert me.

#3 missingno

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 04:16 AM

sorry sport i can't read the page you have background music on it.

#4 The Mike

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 04:20 AM

On a somewhat related note, I messaged this random chick cause she was vegetarian and her profile said she loved animals I'm like, "Hey that's cool I do also!"  Then she messaged me back basically saying Christ is the truth and tried to convert me.


Yeah, I hate it when that shit happens.  I've got three different Christians on my back right now who are trying to get me to jump on the bandwagon.  It makes for semi-relevant discussion, but it's mostly just annoying.

#5 Ayolark

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:00 AM

Well, here are a few topics: Who Created God?
Creationism v. Evolution
moral subjectivity v. sin
the idea of free will and an omniscient God
reconciling monotheism with the Trinity
child discipline: Biblical vs. behavioral perspectives
nature of the soul and of Heaven (i.e. what do you get as rewards in Heaven, and why do many claim that the rewards are physical in nature)
infinte punishment for finite sin
how Satan can rival God's power
the role of Christianity in legislation today
indoctrination of children in religion
concepts of physical demons and the Devil (exorcisms used on the mentally ill....)
religion v. science (recently learned that some Christians actually are religiously opposed to vaccinations!)
"miracles" (whether miracles are actual divine intervention, or simply improbable occurences misattributed to a god)
God of the gaps (why we use God to explain the unknown)
No historical Jesus
Relationship between the divine and the hallucinogenic
Justifying unfairness and death with an afterlife (and how this devalues life)
God in the image of man (and how this affects treatment of animals)
Misogyny in the Bible; Homophobia, Racism, and Crusades justified by the Bible
How claiming a True Faith affects treatment of others and justifies ignorance
Key to salvation: faith or virtue?
And, of course, killing in the name of God.

#6 Dark Angel

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:01 AM

Give them this link and walk away victorius. http://www.exitmundi.nl/bible/

I am dead serious.
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#7 ImmortalDreamer

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:18 AM

Completely off topic here, but lol at the "heathen punkbag" thing.

#8 The Mike

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:25 AM

Ayolark, I think you just singlehandedly solved the problem.  That's enough to keep me up to my eyesockets in debate until, well, Jesus returns. 

Completely off topic here, but lol at the "heathen punkbag" thing.

Yes, that was the highlight of my hatemail. 

#9 rudy the red-beaked reindeer

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:26 AM

you better start studying the bible

and if you're actually going to do this, you've got to do it for the comedy factor. I don't know who these people are or anything, but they've probably worked out all their arguments already and just want to defeat you. so it pretty much depends on how good you are at being a troll?

I'm just saying this because you probably can't beat them. not because THEY'RE RIGHT but because they more than likely live in this shit and they're good at winning just by destroying the other side's argument and making them look stupid (like what we do here at GW)

#10 Ayolark

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:53 AM

You probably can beat them if (unlike me) you don't get dizzied by Bible verses, and you look up a few of the more basic arguments.  Aside from that, all you need to do is have a basic understanding of logic, arm yourself with a few counterarguments and counterexamples to the more popular gems (like the legendary Pascal's Wager....) and you'll be fine.  (You could go here: http://answers.yahoo...sid=396545163.  It's basically a question and answer format battleground between Atheists and Christians, with the occassional reference to Muslims, Pagans, and Jews.  Though it may be hard to get any good info....)

Also, I have to say,  "The end is nigh, sinner!  I saw it in a dream because I'm a lol prophet!" is the best response to one of those crazies I have ever heard! (or, rather, seen...).  Anyway, I love your site (might bookmark it for further reading), and hope that you delicately tear those religious ladies a new one!  (Beware though...old ladies can be vicious...I don't need to go through Catholic school to know that!)

#11 Feldschlacht IV

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:58 AM

No one's going to 'win' this either way. The debate between religion and secularism has been raging for hundreds of years, and neither will some kid on the internet, nor will some old lady on the Internet solve any cosmic questions anytime soon. I'm not saying you shouldn't debate, everyone learns from a good debate, but just letting you know, don't have any delusions of grandeur of tearing down Christianity.

#12 rudy the red-beaked reindeer

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 06:09 AM

uh man, they spend their LIVES looking at this stuff. The Mike can't look at this shit over a couple of days and just develop PERFECT VIEW ON GOD and wipe the floor with them. it's not going to happen!

and just looking at the arguments you've listed, a lot of them don't really have any perfect answers. people are scholars of stuff like this! there's a world of history and philosophy behind this stuff that has been going on for centuries, and saying that he's gonna be able to walk in there and defeat them is unrealistic.

like, he could choose maybe a select few points and try to make them, but who's to say that they'll actually, you know, disagree? especially if they're pretty simple points to be making, which will more than likely be the case

depending on how good The Mike is at trolling this could potentially be kind of funny but pretty boring otherwise

edit: responding to ayolark btw
edit: I argued with the author of Darwin's Black Box lmao fuck myself :(

#13 The Mike

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 06:32 AM

Well, this isn't some sort of grand dragon quest to defeat Christianity and wipe it from existence.  A lot of people who subscribe to widely held ideas simply will not change their minds no matter how well your present your opinion, and I'm well aware of that.

I'm mostly doing this because people seem to get a kick out of reading my posts and the ridiculous responses some people come up with.  There is a definite comedic value to it.  However, it's also a way for me to sharpen my teeth on some real world issues and provoke intelligent discussion rather than using my blog for "well, went to the doc today and found out i got butt cancer zomfg". 

Rather than disprove the Christians, I'd like to set an example for people who want to debate the issue.  I'd like me and this old lady to be one of the few who prove that controversial topics can be discussed rationally without having to resort to flaming.

#14 Roman

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 06:41 AM

Give them this link and walk away victorius. http://www.exitmundi.nl/bible/

I am dead serious.


wow dude this site is really interesting!  good call

#15 Feldschlacht IV

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 06:41 AM

Well, this isn't some sort of grand dragon quest to defeat Christianity and wipe it from existence.  A lot of people who subscribe to widely held ideas simply will not change their minds no matter how well your present your opinion, and I'm well aware of that.


It's not as simple as "Oh, you stubborn, stupid Christians!" Believe it or not, there are some aspects of Christianity that just have no concrete logical counterargument for it. I know you've already addressed the other points I brought up, so I wish you the best and I hope both parties learn something.

#16 Farren

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 07:16 AM

On a somewhat related note, I messaged this random chick cause she was vegetarian and her profile said she loved animals I'm like, "Hey that's cool I do also!"  Then she messaged me back basically saying Christ is the truth and tried to convert me.


I don't know what makes her seem more unstable, being a h4rdc0re christian that randomly tries to convert myspace peoples or being a vegitarian.
DEUCE: MEETING THE URINE UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL AND REALIZING IT'S JUST LIKE ME AND MY PREJUDICES  THIS WHOLE TIME WERE COMPLETELY FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF PTTTTHTHTHH GOD IT'S EVERYWHERE<br />DEUCE: FUCK THIS TASTES LIKE PISS<br />PANTS: WHERE IT SHOULD TASTE LIKE COTTON CANDY OR PICKLES<br />DEUCE: OR AT LEAST LIKE URINE NOT PISS

#17 The Mike

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 07:19 AM

I don't know what makes her seem more unstable, being a h4rdc0re christian that randomly tries to convert myspace peoples or being a vegitarian.


Either way, she's prolly not the type to bring home to mommy.

As annoying as it can be at times, I actually do get some degree of amusement out of people who use myspace as a means to convert people.  The whole "I am a prophet, I can see into your wounded soul" thing made me lol many times. 

I have to confess that after I posted Cruelty and Violence:  The Old Testament, I went around and joined 7 or 8 Christian blog groups and invited all of their members to my blog just to see what sort of hilarity I could provoke.  Needless to say, it worked. 

#18 Dark Angel

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:32 AM

wow dude this site is really interesting!  good call


Yeah, I think it is great. I never knew that the bible actually stole it's stories from religions that were thousands of years older than it until I read that site. That website reminds me of the ormon episode on South Park "Wait, you guys know this story and still believe it?"  :fogetmmh:
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#19 datamanc3r

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:47 AM

...Is this the woman who claimed to be a prophet?

And you want to try to have a civil debate with her?

EDIT: I wish that site had its sources readily available. If you want to refute something, you can't just blindly agree with the counterargument. You'll have then subject yourself to the same mindset of the crazed christian and perpetuate another thousand-years worth of useless arguments -- ill-grounded.
"I would be totally embarassed to write this, even as a fakepost. it's not funny except in how you seem to think it's good. look at all the redundancies, for fuck's sake. "insipid semantics, despicable mediocrity" ugh gross gross. I want to take a shower every time I read your prose." -Steel

#20 Dark Angel

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:51 AM

What do you mean by "readily available"? They DO cite their references and sources.
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