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Morality of Meat Eaters


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#1 Lyric

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:49 PM

Killing a human being is immoral. Eating a human being is immoral. Killing anything when there is an option around it is immoral. Killing an animal needlessly is immoral. Is eating meat immoral? Let's fully debate the morality of carnivores.


#2 Vesper

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:52 PM

animals are not human, they deserve to be eaten for being so stupid. we have no obligation to care for any other specices other than our own, that is evolution for you.

meat tastes good so i will continue to eat it for as long as i can.

#3 ase

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:53 PM

I know you're a new member and you said in your welcome topic that you like DEBATING, but you really need to put a little more effort into your topics.

I'm going to give you another chance, though. Add some more information into your opening posts (summarize/bulletpoint both sides of the argument, provide some links, talk about your own experiences, etc). Basically, please do more than just say LET'S DEBATE

#4 Lyric

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:00 PM

Things sure do run differently here.  I'll try to keep that in mind in the future, ASE.  I'll try to add in a bit of a personal twist. 

I am a vegan.  I don't eat meat for two reasons.  I don't like the taste of meat, and I don't feel it's right. All of the nutrients that we need can be found in plants.  Sometimes the nutrients take work (B12) to find, but they're there nonetheless.  In my opinion, eating meat might have been necessary when plants had not been cultivated or were hard to come by, but in this day and age, it's not a matter of survival.  It's a matter of luxury.

#5 ase

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:01 PM

I think we found Doktormartini a friend.

#6 ATARI

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:02 PM

i like when people are vegans because it just means that there is more meat available for me to eat

thanks for doing your part bro

#7 Vesper

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:03 PM

Things sure do run differently here.  I'll try to keep that in mind in the future, ASE.  I'll try to add in a bit of a personal twist. 

I am a vegan.  I don't eat meat for two reasons.  I don't like the taste of meat, and I don't feel it's right. All of the nutrients that we need can be found in plants.  Sometimes the nutrients take work (B12) to find, but they're there nonetheless.  In my opinion, eating meat might have been necessary when plants had not been cultivated or were hard to come by, but in this day and age, it's not a matter of survival.  It's a matter of luxury.


what are we supposed to do with all the cows and pigs we have? they don't really have a place in nature anymore, we don't have any natural place for the cows of today to live in. should we just take care of them anyway? that's jsut not very profitable. i think everyone and everything would like to live a little than not live at all.

#8 Vellfire

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:05 PM

I can understand to some degree people attaching morality to the way we treat our animals, yes, but I do NOT see why it's immoral to eat animals.  It's not immoral for other animals to eat animals, and not immoral for us to eat other animals either.  Now, how we go about killing the animal or treating it before eating it is subject to these morality issues, but I don't see how it's a problem just to eat them.

edit: And the argument of eating meat being unnecessary is ridiculous.  If you are saying we don't need to look further than plants and such, why not just narrow it down to a specific list of plants that give you the exact amount of nutrients you need and not eat other plants?  Why not just take nothing but vitamins and not even eat food?  What about people who can't eat nuts for protein?  Also, humans aren't about just surviving.  It isn't always a matter of luxury because some people DO need meat to survive (there are places in the world where you just plain can't grow many plants, and your argument should apply to all people since it deals with eating, which everyone does).  Besides, being human means going beyond surviving--maybe not to a ridiculous degree like people who eat themselves into morbid obesity (which is mostly because of unhealthy processed foods, not meat), but we're able to eat for enjoyment as opposed to just survival, much like how we don't just have sex for reproduction. 

Still, if you want to say eating meat isn't necessary to survival, neither is the internet.  That's the beauty of being human--we can do more than survive.

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#9 headphonics

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:12 PM

I can understand to some degree people attaching morality to the way we treat our animals, yes, but I do NOT see why it's immoral to eat animals.  It's not immoral for other animals to eat animals, and not immoral for us to eat other animals either.  Now, how we go about killing the animal or treating it before eating it is subject to these morality issues, but I don't see how it's a problem just to eat them.

This is a flawed comparison, though.  I agree that it's definitely immoral the way we handle slaughterhouses and the PROCESS of killing animals to eat them, but I think there's some validity to the argument that eating meat at all is immoral.  Animals eat meat because they don't have a choice; it's how they survive.  If a lion doesn't pounce on a gazelle and eat it, it can't just replace the loss of food in its diet with something else, and humans can.  The difference is that at this point, people don't need to eat meat to survive.  There are plenty of other options that are readily available and arguably cheaper, and this definitely isn't the case with carnivorous animals!  I think hunting is immoral because it's just needless killing, and along the same lines, I'm not sure how necessary the killing of animals for food is at this juncture in human civilization, so it's probably questionable at best.

Edit.  Okay you edited!  There's no reason to make a list of which plants you can and can't eat because plants are not moving, breathing animals that can feel things.  Also, nuts aren't the only source of protein besides meat.  But making a comparison between INTERNET and eating meat is pretty retarded, and I think you have to realize this on some level.  Yeah man idk what could the difference possibly be aside from the fact that one does not involve slaughtering millions upon millions of animals?  This isn't just about necessity, it's about necessity weighed against the morality of something.  It doesn't make sense to draw parallels between things where morality doesn't enter into it (i.e. other frivolous things in society that, while unnecessary, aren't immoral because their existence does not hurt or kill anything).

#10 Lyric

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:13 PM

Atari, I'm a woman.  I'm happy to have done my part though.

Vesper, you raise an interesting point that quite honestly I've never thought about.  We breed the hell out of livestock just to slice and dice them.  If we stopped studding them and breeding them as voraciously as we do, I have a feeling that things would work out.  It might take a while, but eventually the numbers would die down.

Velfarre, others animals do not have the capacity to understand morality and options as well as we humans do.  What sets us apart from other animals is our ability to think critically and to reason.  The internet does not inhibit a living thing's most basic right to life.

#11 jamie

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:16 PM

i stopped eating meat about 4 weeks ago i guess. i done it for a couple of reasons:

i) i think animals are cool and i don't really feel too great about the concept of gobblin' em up 
ii) i hypothesized that if i wasn't eating meat i would probably start eating more healthily and that's pretty much been the case. not that i think meat is bad for you, from what i can tell most of if it undisputably good for you, but it's the stuff i would eat with meat - like loads of batter, or meat flavoured crisps, or loads of other fatty shit.
iii) i don't need meat

yeah that's pretty much why. it hasn't been difficult for me to avoid eating meat so i don't really need much more reason than that, i'm happy with the choice.

anyway as far as if eating meat is immoral then i'd say if i had to vote Y/N, i'd probably vote Y. i don't think people who eat meat are dirty rotten scumbags though, the meat is always gonna get made and sold, it doesn't really matter in the end who eats it because someone always will. i'm aware that me being all "heh i don't eat meat" could get very sanctimonious and also kind of obnoxious considering i'm lucky enough to have been born in a country where i can pick and choose whatever the fuck i like to eat and not think about it too much, so i don't talk about it unless somebody asks about it.

if you have to eat meat to survive then absolutely, go ahead. heck even if it's grossly impractical for you not to eat meat for whatever reason, then i'd say go ahead. it is killing anything which doesn't have to die i don't like. if meat is someone's livelihood or there is nothing else to eat, it's pretty ridiculous to judge them.



#12 otomon

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:21 PM

You cant really choose if its moral or not because there is so many people with different beliefs..even if you stop eating meat other people are still going to eat it.

#13 Vellfire

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:22 PM

Animals eat meat because they don't have a choice; it's how they survive.  If a lion doesn't pounce on a gazelle and eat it, it can't just replace the loss of food in its diet with something else, and humans can.


I don't agree with this argument entirely either, because there are animals that DO have a choice.  There are plenty of lizards that eat mostly vegetables, but will also eat meats or insects.  Many of them can do without the meat, but would not given the choice.  The difference is that they are animals, and their choice is going to be whatever is in front of their face at the time.  Still, they make decisions, no matter how simple.  However, the argument isn't about what choices they make, it's about whether or not they have a choice in what they eat, and many animals that do eat meat could do fine without it.  It sounds really ridiculous talking about lizards choosing their foods, but I've watched them pick out meat from between a bowl of mixed meat and vegetables and only eating the vegetables when the meat was gone.  In the wild it's different because obviously they aren't given platters but their brains tend to choose meats first, vegetables later.  Their brains may be small and simple, but the point is that for a lot of them they are actually HEALTHIER and better off with very little meat, but they will choose it regardless.

There are plenty of other options that are readily available and arguably cheaper, and this definitely isn't the case with carnivorous animals!  I think hunting is immoral because it's just needless killing, and along the same lines, I'm not sure how necessary the killing of animals for food is at this juncture in human civilization, so it's probably questionable at best.


Most of the vegetarian and vegan supplement foods for meat are WAY more expensive, vegetables and such are cheaper than meat but a lot of the things you need to get up to par are pretty expensive.  Although I guess you could make it with that kind of diet cheaper, most people end up spending quite a bit.  I'm not a fan of hunting unless you do eat the meat, which a lot of people don't, and of course needless killing is immoral--that goes into how we kill animals over eating them.  And as I already said, in a lot of places killing animals is necessary for food even now because there aren't other choices, which kind of goes into the argument about animals.

edit:  Animals have a basic right to life, but animals take each others right to life all the time.  My point was that sometimes we have to do the same.  Morality is a human thing, yes, but my point was that it's not immoral to eat animals, so I'm not applying it to animals either.  I'm saying that it's necessary to eat animals in some cases, and that you can't say it's immoral when it can be necessary for human life.  It doesn't matter if it's not for everyone, it still counts.

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#14 Lyric

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:26 PM

Most of the vegetarian and vegan supplement foods for meat are WAY more expensive, vegetables and such are cheaper than meat but a lot of the things you need to get up to par are pretty expensive.  Although I guess you could make it with that kind of diet cheaper, most people end up spending quite a bit.  I'm not a fan of hunting unless you do eat the meat, which a lot of people don't, and of course needless killing is immoral--that goes into how we kill animals over eating them.  And as I already said, in a lot of places killing animals is necessary for food even now because there aren't other choices, which kind of goes into the argument about animals.


I disagree with this.  If you're lazy about it and get the premade soy stuff, they do tend to be expensive (and pretty nasty tasting).  However, the legumes and brown rice itself is not very expensive at all compared to meat.  Meat is some of the most unreasonably priced foods out there. 

#15 headphonics

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:27 PM

if you have to eat meat to survive then absolutely, go ahead. heck even if it's grossly impractical for you not to eat meat for whatever reason, then i'd say go ahead. it is killing anything which doesn't have to die i don't like. if meat is someone's livelihood or there is nothing else to eat, it's pretty ridiculous to judge them.

yeah this btw.  sorry if i am coming across as saying HEH DONT EAT MEAT ever because i really don't think that!  at most, i just think that if other avenues are available to you, then you probably shouldn't because at that point, yeah, it's just encouraging needless killing.  for the same reason i don't hold it against carnivorous animals for eating meat, i wouldn't hold it against a person whose diet depended on meat for them to live, either, or even if as jamicus said, it's just grossly impractical for them to completely give up meat.  i mean, i still eat meat because i like the taste of it, but it's hardly necessary for me, and i'm at least willing to admit that this is of questionable morality when held up to my other standards as far as killing goes.

I don't agree with this argument entirely either, because there are animals that DO have a choice.  There are plenty of lizards that eat mostly vegetables, but will also eat meats or insects.  Many of them can do without the meat, but would not given the choice.  The difference is that they are animals, and their choice is going to be whatever is in front of their face at the time.  Still, they make decisions, no matter how simple.  However, the argument isn't about what choices they make, it's about whether or not they have a choice in what they eat, and many animals that do eat meat could do fine without it.  It sounds really ridiculous talking about lizards choosing their foods, but I've watched them pick out meat from between a bowl of mixed meat and vegetables and only eating the vegetables when the meat was gone.  In the wild it's different because obviously they aren't given platters but their brains tend to choose meats first, vegetables later.  Their brains may be small and simple, but the point is that for a lot of them they are actually HEALTHIER and better off with very little meat, but they will choose it regardless.

animals... don't have any concept of morality to begin with, so i really don't see how what they'd do has any bearing!  animals do a lot of things that people don't do!  the difference is that, unlike many of them, not only do we have a choice, but we distinguish between right and wrong and value life on an intrinsic level, something animals don't do!  one of the other BEAUTIES of being human is the capacity for ethics, and this is an extension of that.

Most of the vegetarian and vegan supplement foods for meat are WAY more expensive, vegetables and such are cheaper than meat but a lot of the things you need to get up to par are pretty expensive.  Although I guess you could make it with that kind of diet cheaper, most people end up spending quite a bit.  I'm not a fan of hunting unless you do eat the meat, which a lot of people don't, and of course needless killing is immoral--that goes into how we kill animals over eating them.  And as I already said, in a lot of places killing animals is necessary for food even now because there aren't other choices, which kind of goes into the argument about animals.

i think you're just going by places that overprice things because it's sort of a niche market.  i don't really know anything about a vegan diet, but that's always come off as a bit extreme to me, anyway.  as far as a vegetarian one goes, it's really not all that expensive at all if you don't want it to be, and you can get a lot of the nutritional supplements you need from lacking meat in your diet in a relatively inexpensive way.  so yeah, i stand by my statement that for most of us living in developed countries there are cheaper (or at least comparatively priced) alternatives for vegetarians, and maybe for vegans as well.

#16 Frankie

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:29 PM

You know the amount of insects that die to farmers' cruel use of insecticides in their fields? How is killing insects any more moral than killing animals? Is it because of their size? No matter where you want to take your food you're going to have to kill a whole lot of stuff. Limiting yourself to killing only certain creatures and letting others live doesn't make the killing any more righteous, it just places an arbitrary right to live on certain cuter life forms.
Also most people on this planet don't have the luxury to choose what they will eat. But even there, why would they? Can you argue how killing a grasshopper is any less cruel than killing a deer, other than their respective sizes?

#17 `~congresman Ron paul~~

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:30 PM

grasshoppers don't have the same ability to feel pain as a deer, for one
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#18 headphonics

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:30 PM

You know the amount of insects that die to farmers' cruel use of insecticides in their fields? How is killing insects any more moral than killing animals? Is it because of their size? No matter where you want to take your food you're going to have to kill a whole lot of stuff. Limiting yourself to killing only certain creatures and letting others live doesn't make the killing any more righteous, it just places an arbitrary right to live on certain cuter life forms.
Also most people on this planet don't have the luxury to choose what they will eat. But even there, why would they? Can you argue how killing a grasshopper is any less cruel than killing a deer, other than their respective sizes?

hey read the topic!!!!!  it is not about killing so much as it is killing unnecessarily.

#19 Vellfire

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:31 PM

animals... don't have any concept of morality to begin with, so i really don't see how what they'd do has any bearing!  animals do a lot of things that people don't do!  the difference is that, unlike many of them, not only do we have a choice, but we distinguish between right and wrong and value life on an intrinsic level, something animals don't do!  one of the other BEAUTIES of being human is the capacity for ethics, and this is an extension of that.


I was never saying they did.  I know they don't have the decision making basis of ethics that we do, I was just saying that the argument of "they have no choice" isn't true.  What we determine is different, and our views on ethics and morals change from person to person:  the reason we're having this topic.  I didn't mean for that argument to be involved with the morals argument, it just sort of appeared that way.

And as for the price thing, I guess I was going based on the kind of shit Doktormartini eats like SPIRULINA TABLETS and GOJI BERRIES.

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#20 Frankie

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:37 PM

I did read the topic, I thought that the idea of "killing unnecessarily" was for instance, eating meat when you could eat vegetables instead. Or does she mean like, killing certain animals just for their fur? I do think this is unnecessary as synthetic fur can be just as good, AND less expensive, so choosing real fur is just a snobby choice. But a lot of people do live by selling these furs though, like the seal clobbers...

As for the pain argument, I think it is arguable that the ability to feel pain is a very arbitrary reason to give different worth to certain forms of life. I am sure you wouldn't think a human who is unable to feel pain would be any less of a human because of that. Or at the very least you wouldn't kill him without remorse!

Of course it seems silly to defend the right to live of insects, because well, there are zillions of them, and they are so different from us that we feel very little empathy for them. But still, it does show that the worth we give to other life is just proportional to how much they look like us, which IS in the end very arbitrary and far from righteous.




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