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Right To Refuse


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#1 Lyric

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:53 PM

Patients have a right to decide whether or not they want to have an abortion. Do you feel doctors should have that right too? Should doctors have the right to refuse performing an abortion or must they do as their patients request as long as it is not medically harmful for the patient?

I think doctors should have the right to refuse treatment. If I wanted my eyes removed so that they could be sold on the black market, I have a hard time believing a doctor would do that. It's something I would have chosen to do that might very well go against the doctor's sense of morality. Same goes with abortion. I believe it can go against a doctor's morality, and thus he should be allowed to refuse treatment.

#2 ase

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:55 PM

woah woah woah

Read what I said in your other topic. Put some time and effort into your topics. This isn't a competition for SEE HOW MANY DEBATE TOPICS YOU CAN MAKE IN ONE DAY. Fix one of these topics up or both of them. If not, I will be forced to lock one or the other.

#3 tuxedo marx

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:58 PM

I think lyric was halfway through posting this one when you posted in the other, ASE

#4 Lyric

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:01 PM

I didn't see your reply until I posted the three new topics.  Like I said, I'll try to put just a bit more effort into future threads.

#5 jamie

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:44 PM

yeah i'd say doctors should have a right to refuse performing an abortion, but i don't think it should ever come down to a situation like

"hello doctor, i need to have an abortion"
"SORRY I DON'T DO THAT - you make me sick"

i don't know how abortion clinics work but wouldn't it make sense for doctor's to have to sign some kind of form which would allow them to stay out of the clinics, or something like that? you know, an opt out because it's against their moral or religious beliefs. that way doctors who are die hard anti-abortion never have to step foot in an abortion clinic, that is, if they ever do already. but that could bring problems. if too many doctors are opting out and people can't get abortions there would be trouble, and it might open the door to other special interests like anti-amputation doctors wanting opt-outs for that kind of thing.

man i know nothing about how these things actually work, i'm just trying to think from a stand point of keeping things fair and peaceable.

i think abortion should always be an option to a woman who has become pregnant and for whatever reason doesn't want the baby. i don't think many women would take the decision likely and if they go as far as getting one then it was probably for the best. my view is that the things that really make us human are our relationships, memories and experiences. when people die, these things all go away and that hurts and that's what makes killing such an awful thing - developing fetuses don't have any of these things. unless they can survive independently from their mothers and their brains are developed to consciousness, i don't think it is wrong to have an abortion. it's sad, and it's pretty upsetting to think about, but sometimes it is just what should be done for the sake of everyone involved.

i just typed a bunch more in favour of abortion but reading it back i realised it's alot more grey than that. cos if a baby which would have otherwise been aborted was actually born, then possibilities start popping up all over the place. even if it was put up for adoption, there is every chance it could be adopted and have a great life, or maybe the mother could become a good mother and the kid would have a decent life.

but even saying that, i don't consider developing fetuses to be human beings because they don't feel like we do and they can't survive on their own (you know, until they can, at which point it becomes too late. so the possibilities make it sad, but not immoral.

so with all of that, i obviously think that doctor's who refuse to perform abortions are wrong in their stance, and it becomes a question of how much ground do i want to give to a position i think is wrong? my battery is running out so i'll think about that for la





#6 Frankie

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:55 PM

I agree with this, I think abortion should be a right.
But one thing I fear though, is that the government takes abortion as THE solution that closes the discussion, you know?

Like for instance, in Quebec, we no longer have sex ed classes. I think those are very important, we have to make sure kids know about contraception, so to try and prevent at least some of the cases of unwanted pregnancies. And also while they're there, teach kids about how to prevent sexually transmissible diseases and stuff.

I am pretty sure abortion is a horrible decision to take, and a horrible time to go through for any mother, and sexual education could prevent a lot of these situations in the first place.

For about doctor's right to choose, I am not sure honestly. Do doctors have the right to refuse operations that are legal, because of personal moral reasons? I really don't know what to think about this part.

#7 dada

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 06:26 PM

If I wanted my eyes removed so that they could be sold on the black market, I have a hard time believing a doctor would do that.

You seem to have a problem with abortion. Why did you make this topic, really? Didn't you just make it so you could take a swipe at this particular issue?

I can see where this topic is going!!


Okay, to be fair, let me answer the question:

Patients have a right to decide whether or not they want to have an abortion. Do you feel doctors should have that right too? Should doctors have the right to refuse performing an abortion or must they do as their patients request as long as it is not medically harmful for the patient?

I don't feel they should have the "right" to not be punished when they refuse to help a patient. There are many reasons why a doctor should never be allowed this. When a doctor has the free ability to decide, whenever he wishes, to refuse a patient, it could cause all sorts of nasty situations that might not be easily resolved. What if a white doctor decides to refuse to help a black man? And what if this black man is in desperate need for help, and there's nobody else around? With the "right" to refuse treating people, this doctor would not even have to be fired despite having caused an incredibly dangerous situation. I can think of many other examples, too, since virtually every personal opinion of a doctor could be an excuse to create such a life-threatening situation.

It's also completely against the spirit of the profession to refuse patients over moral objections. Why do you think organizations like the Red Cross exist? A human being's health should be provided for regardless of personal beliefs or biological attributes over which they have no control.


#8 Lyric

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 06:42 PM

I'm actually pro-abortion. I think a woman's body and a woman's life are hers to control.  However, I am also for a doctor's right to choose whether or not he is the one to perform it.  I don't feel it's right to have a doctor perform what he is not morally comfortable with when it's not a life or death situation.  It's kind of lack plastic surgery.  Should a doctor be forced into it?  I don't think so.  I don't think all OBGYNs should be forced into performing abortions simply because they can and that's what the patient wants.  There are plenty of doctors who will perform abortions who aren't morally opposed.

#9 Carrion Crow

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 06:56 PM

In high school we got made to watch a movie where a woman aborted her baby (and herself) by sticking a knitting needle up herself.

Ever since then I have been pro-abortion. It should be free and accessible to people who are under pressure of "my life is ruined i'm up the duff!"

#10 dada

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:40 PM

I'm actually pro-abortion. I think a woman's body and a woman's life are hers to control.

It's very difficult to envision you as someone who's pro-choice when you first compare it to the things you mention. First, you compare it to a doctor "taking out your eyes so you can sell them on the black market", and now you're saying it's like refusing to do plastic surgery. Both of them are quite different from an issue as consequential as abortion. It's as if you don't really get (or care about) the implications of a woman being able to choose to end an unwanted pregnancy.

It's kind of lack plastic surgery.  Should a doctor be forced into it?  I don't think so.

By the way, I'll assume for one second here that you are talking about cosmetic plastic surgery, rather than the umbrella term, because the latter also deals with important surgery beyond just changing rich people's looks (for example burn wounds, cleft lip, facial bone fractures, et cetera). Cosmetic surgery is a medical specialty and is only performed by those who have studied it; it's not something just any surgeon can do. If you don't want to perform cosmetic surgery, well, then I'd expect that you refrain from studying it and then getting a job at some private clinic that does them.


#11 Marmot

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 08:44 PM

if they become doctors, i dont think they have the right to refuse, because abortion is a fundamental right. its like saying catholic pharmaceuists can refuse to give out condoms or contraception pills, or that racist doctors can refuse to operate on black people.
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#12 Lars

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:50 PM

this is a pretty dumb topic to begin with because only doctors that are trained to perform abortions can actually perform one and if you're against abortions you won't be trained to do it.

medicine is all about specialisation. my dad's a doctor, and so are all his friends. some of them know everything about ear disorders in and out but don't know jack shit about regular fevers. so yeah.

if a doctor that is trained to perform abortions denies performing one it's time to find something else to do

#13 Frisky SKeleton

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 10:07 PM

because of the hippocratic oath they have a duty to help people out, but i could easily understand a doctor not wanting to amputate limbs from children or something similiar. it really depends on who the doctor is working for as to what they can or can't refuse imo

I USE Q'S INSTEQD OF Q'S


#14 pburn

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 10:11 PM

I'm totally against taking away human lives, even in the form of fetuses, but I'm pro-abortion. It seems to me that things would get worse if there was no abortion. It would like create a new unsafe black market.

I'm an idiot sorry my reasoning sucks.
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#15 Marmot

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 03:41 AM

because of the hippocratic oath they have a duty to help people out, but i could easily understand a doctor not wanting to amputate limbs from children or something similiar. it really depends on who the doctor is working for as to what they can or can't refuse imo


i see what u did there
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#16 ase

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 04:05 AM

its like saying catholic pharmaceuists can refuse to give out condoms or contraception pills

There's actually a really interesting article about states trying to pass legislation about this:

http://www.nytimes.c...nal/19pill.html

Some pharmacies wanted to make it legal for individual pharmacists to refuse to give out the morning-after, but allow their fellow co-workers who don't have moral objections to do so

#17 Cray

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:29 AM

the morning-after pill, there's a huge controversy around here because of that. The court judged it inconstitutional to give free morning-after pill in public hospitals. so now it supposedly illegal to do so, but they rich people still can buy it, so it's kinda stupid.
Anyway about the doctors, I think a doctor could refuse to perform it AS LONG as he gives the patient a contact to another doctor that WILL do it. that way it won't happen that a patient will have a hard time finding one, but the doctor who says it's against his principles, won't have to do it himself.
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